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- [This from David Munson, a commenter]
- Am I experiencing deja-vu or has this thread been reposted with the comments wiped clean?
[A Response to CnMacAtheist from NCSE]
Dear Cdn: We here at NCSE appreciate the vigorous debate, and you should feel free to disagree with other readers. But
we’d ask that you not make it personal. With that in mind, we’d appreciate it you revised your previous comment to focus on your substantive disagreement and removed the name-calling. Thanks, Robert Luhn, NCSE.
[This from me]
Mr. Luhn, perhaps I can help here.
If you click on CDnMacAtheist’s avitar, you will see many examples of his comments that go well beyond what your own “comment policies” promote. Many of these comments are considered by myself and others as part of “vigorous debate”, and largely ignored as ranting – especially when Atheist seldom if ever offers a meaningful basis for his many insults and assertions.
There are a couple of attacks however, that fall to a much lower level and need to be confronted lest those in power, at some point, succumb to the ideology behind these attacks and pass legislation and laws resulting in severe persecution of those holding views contrary to the accepted dogma:
1) The accusation of child abuse against those holding to a creationist or design viewpoint. Child abuse is generally seen as a serious criminal activity, often sexual and/or physical, and strict laws have been passed to protect children victimized by such abuse. To extend the definition of child abuse as advocated by Atheist and others at this site would result in scenes reminiscent of Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and China under the atheistic Communist regimes … scenes where the “authorities” barge into a church or home where children are being taught from Genesis … scenes where the teachers, pastors and parents are hauled off to a court and prison … scenes where children are taken away from parents and made wards of the state. Extreme? Yes, but not unprecedented in history.
We have a 1’st Amendment here in the US (perhaps not in Canada) which should protect against such governmental abuse, but if the charge of child abuse is somehow codified into law, then such 1’st amendment protections become null and void.
And by the way, Atheist has leveled a charge of pedophilia against me on these pages for comments I made to a young NCSE intern.
2) The accusation of treason on my part because being a Navy veteran I took an oath to uphold and protect the Constitution of the United States. Yes, Atheist actually leveled this charge against me – because I advocate a differing view and approach of ‘science’ from the generally accepted materialistic rational.
Again, I first let that charge slide off my back as delusional ranting.
By extension Atheist’s charge of treason could be leveled against my new friend Gene. Gene is a WW-II Navy veteran who enlisted at age 16 and spent 2 years, 7 months and 4 days fighting the South Pacific wars against a very strong brutal and imperialistic Japanese military conquest of much of the Pacific region. Gene then joined the US Army and served 20 years, including 2 combat tours in Korea fighting the onslaught of the atheistic Communists of North Korea and China. Gene spent 20 years in the Army, and following his retirement became a Christian pastor and in the past 25 years has founded 19 new churches in the northern reaches of Minnesota. A traitor to his country because of his Christian beliefs?
Then there is Ernesto, a sailor I served with in the mid-sixties off the coast of Vietnam. Ernesto eventually became a somewhat successful Christian pastor in New Mexico. Is this man also a traitor to his country?
* * * *
I’m afraid we’ve seen too many men like Atheist throughout history:
- Men who load Jews onto cattle cars and send them to the gas chambers.
- Men who load Christians onto trains and send them off to the work camps of Siberia.
- Men who decapitate men like Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg simply because he was a Jew, or “faithist” as Atheist would prefer to call him.
- Men who would burn the Coptic Christian churches of Egypt because they hold to a different view of reality and faith.
Atheist reminds me so much of those bullies who tormented me in Jr. High School. But a good solid punch to the nose of one of them one night ended the bullying. Consider this ‘rant’ to be a punch in the nose.
- [CdnMacAtheist Response]
- Don said: If you click on CDnMacAtheist’s avitar, you’ll see many examples of his comments that go well beyond what your “comment policies” promote. Many of these comments are considered by myself & others as part of “vigorous debate” & largely ignored as ranting – especially when Atheist seldom if ever offers a meaningful basis for his many insults & assertions.
Mac: Please note that this is a Science Education site & since religion & intelligent design have both been legally excluded from science education, when Don cames here to proselytise his faith & ID, he’s “going well beyond what the NCSE Comment Policies promote.”
If any of my descriptors can be shown to be untrue or unfounded, then point them out to me & I’ll respond from a freethinking, secular, rational, scientific viewpoint?Don said: There are a couple of attacks however, that fall to a much lower level & need to be confronted lest those in power, at some point, succumb to the ideology behind these attacks & pass legislation & laws resulting in severe persecution of those holding views contrary to the accepted dogma:
Mac: Ah, so you want ‘your’ dogma & doctrine to hold sway – like your religions did in the Dark Ages, or how they operate in theocracies around the world, where secular non-theists like me can be ostracised, jailed, tortured or executed for blasphemy or apostacy?Don said: 1) The accusation of child abuse against those holding to a creationist or design viewpoint.
Mac: I hold that view about any religious or ideological indoctrination, not just the YEC or ID factions. It’s a known opinion among psychologists & social scientists that religious & ideological indoctrination IS child abuse – both physical & mental – so my view can be supported by facts, evidence, processes & theories, unlike the faith, fears & beliefs that religions inculcate into innocent children & youths.
Don said: Child abuse is generally seen as a serious criminal activity, often sexual &/or physical, & strict laws have been passed to protect children victimized by such abuse.
Mac: The most common & intrusive forms of child abuse are the mental damage caused by pervasive.
fear-mongering, dictatorial groups – be they family, peers, schools, churches, ceremonies, societies, laws, traditions & governments. The imposition of mind-dulling god myths, magical fairy stories, virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, angels, satan, heaven, hell, limbo, purgatory, prayer, etc. is as bad as anything that the Dear Leader ‘necrocracy’ in North Korea has produced to keep the ideology going.
Don said: To extend the definition of child abuse as advocated by Atheist & others at this site would result in scenes reminiscent of Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union & China under atheistic Communist regimes.
Mac: The usual, where Nazi Germany is claimed to have been “atheistic” when the evidence clearly refutes that, since 95% of Germans were Catholic & Hitler never renounced his religion or was excommunicated while being pandered to & celebrated by Popes at the time!!!
Remember that 2000 yrs of persecution of Jews is entirely Christian, drove the German & Soviet holocausts, plus Islam inherited that Jew hatred from
The Soviets & Chinese had ideological tyrannies, with totalitarianism that used atheism as a political tool because religions competed for control of the masses,
as well as trying to free their societies from emperors, tzars, feudalism & foreign colonialism.
Don said: Scenes where the “authorities” barge into a church or home where children are being taught from Genesis. Scenes where the teachers, pastors & parents are hauled off to a court & prison. Scenes where children are taken away from parents & made wards of the state. Extreme? Yes, but not unprecedented in history.
Mac: Not at all unprecedented in history – especially in Christian & Islamic theocracies, or where religion & politics were closely tied, which gave good examples
for dictators & idealogues to emulate when trying to rid their countries of monarchy, like Tsar Nicholas of Russia, who had been sanctified by the Russian Orthodox Church:
Remember that Stalin was seminary-trained before becoming political, so he knew the faith game:
Also Lenin had religious parents & upbringing, so he knew how indoctrination worked:
Don said: We have a 1st Amendment in the US which should protect against such governmental abuse, but if the charge of child abuse is somehow codified into law, then such 1st amendment protections become null & void.
Mac: The secular US Constitution has a ‘wall of separation’ between State & Church, to prevent all the
‘State Religion’ troubles that had dogged Europe for centuries, but it hasn’t stopped Christianity from trying to impose its doctrines & dogmas on US governments & all citizens for 223 years!! The 1st amendment ‘freedom of religion’ also implies ‘freedom from religion’, which Christian sects have been illegally usurping since 1791:
Don said: Atheist has leveled a charge of pedophilia against me on these pages for comments I made to a
young NCSE intern.
Mac: For proselytising your ‘faithist IDeas’ into Science Education – where religion, creationism & intelligent design have been declared unconstitutional & illegal
– to someone ~50 years younger, which I said was “like pedophilia” except that it’s mental instead of sexual molestation, which can be as bad:
Don said: 2) The accusation of treason on my part because being a Navy veteran I took an oath to uphold & protect the US Constitution. Yes, Atheist actually leveled this charge against me – because I advocate a differing view & approach of ‘science’ from the generally accepted materialistic rational (sic).
Mac: That opinion is because you consider your religion (a mid-eastern cult directing its foreign agents from Vatican State, a theocracy harboring & protecting
global criminals) to be above your obligations as a USA citizen, encouraging you to illegally proselytise faith & pseudoscience into science education & to try to force GODism, YECism & IDiocy into public school science classes.
I consider this mindset to be treasonous – you can dispute that opinion at any time but you haven’t, you just get ‘offended’ since you see this behavior as ‘normal’ as ‘entitled’ faithists used to getting their way do, per your next sentence:
Don said: Again, I first let that charge slide off my back as delusional ranting.
Mac: As I just said, so point out where the ‘delusional ranting’ is – although I can point out all your own Posts as well as your website if we want to see clear examples of that kind of output….
Don said: I’m afraid we’ve seen too many men like Atheist throughout history: Men who load Jews onto
cattle cars & send them to the gas chambers.
Mac: Done by ideological, megalomaniacal, racial purists & 95% RCC Nazis.
Don said: Men who load Christians onto trains & send them off to the work camps of Siberia.
Mac: Political ideologists opposed to Russian Orthodox Church competition for control of the state.
Don said: Men who decapitate men like Daniel Pearl & Nick Berg simply because he was a Jew, or “faithist” as Atheist would prefer to call him.
Mac: Killed by other “faithists” who were & are just as demented by religion.
Don said: Men who would burn the Coptic Christian churches of Egypt because they hold to a different view of reality & faith.
Mac: Done by other faithists who are no different from Christians in their ‘belief without evidence.’
Don said: Atheist reminds me so much of those bullies who tormented me in Jr. High School.
Mac: Yeah, just like in Scotland where the Catholic & Protestant gangs chased me for my ‘non-belief ‘ – when they weren’t beating each other up for ‘wrong belief’, per Northern Ireland where the Micks & Prods got along so well for 300 years, right?
Don said: But a good solid punch to the nose of one of them one night ended the bullying. Consider this ‘rant’ to be a punch in the nose. Regards, Don.
Mac: Your pathetic attempt at a ‘knockout punch’ has nothing behind it & has no effect on me since your historical (or hysterical – in both senses) expectations
for ‘respect’ & ‘accomodation’ have no standing because you can’t scare me with divine threats – either now or later in heaven or hell – or imprison, torture, burn or execute me for not submitting to mind-dulling god virus & pseudoscience addictions, like those religion mafia enforcers used to do with impunity.
I don’t apologise for or withdraw my accusations or descriptors, since I can back them with rationality &
evidence – unlike your beliefs – so you can hand-wave & whine all you like, while I still think you are a disgusting example of science-ignorant, education-polluting, law-breaking, reality-denying, faith-deluded, submissive, gullible humanity…. 8-b
Finally – here’s the latest (SLofA only) Up Vote ratings:
Don – was 1%, now 0.75%
Mac – was 84%, now 106.5%
The readers have spoken, so I’ll wait to see what the NCSE Moderator does after assessing our ‘testimonies’.
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. Matthew 10:14